From catfood@strinc.com Tue Nov  1 18:31:35 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: catfood@strinc.com (Mark W. Schumann)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper,comp.databases.xbase.misc,comp.lang.misc
Subject: RFD: comp.lang.clipper
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 1 Nov 1994 17:52:27 -0500
Organization: Systems for Today's Retailer, Brecksville, Ohio USA
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Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:5856 news.groups:122118 alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper:3987 comp.databases.xbase.misc:2411 comp.lang.misc:18400

R E Q U E S T  F O R  D I S C U S S I O N
-----------------------------------------

This is the Request For Discussion on creation of a Usenet newsgroup
under the comp hierarchy, for the discussion of the Clipper
programming language.  [Note that this topic has virtually nothing to
do with the Clipper encryption chip.]

The discussions generated in news.groups by this RFD will determine
the actual charter of the newsgroup to be created and the form of the
CFV.  I will post a revised RFD halfway through the discussion period
that represents the consensus about which group to create, which will
include a proposed sample ballot.


Proposed Groups
---------------
One of the following:

 comp.databases.xbase.clipper
 comp.lang.clipper


Status
------
Unmoderated


Distribution
------------
Worldwide


Proposed Voting Period
----------------------
RFD 1 begins  1-Nov-94
RFD 2 begins 14-Nov-94
CFV begins about 28-Nov-94


Charter
-------

comp.databases.xbase.clipper or comp.lang.clipper will be a newsgroup
for programmers interested in the Clipper applications development
language.  The purpose of the new newsgroup is:

(1) To discuss the design, programming, and administration of systems
    and applications which use the Clipper programming language.

(2) To share ideas, information, and specific experience regarding
    design and programming of applications with Clipper.

(3) To discuss new products of interest to Clipper developers,
    including updates to Clipper itself and third-party add-on
    products, their usage, advantages and drawbacks, and where
    shareware/freeware can be found for downloading;

(4) To educate and inform others about the strengths, weaknesses, and
    general usage of Clipper to solve real world problems; and

(5) To allow brief announcements of new tools specifically for
    Clipper programmers.  This specifically excludes:

    (a) General-purpose programming tools;
    (b) Announcements of over 50 lines of text;
    (c) Advertisements listing specific prices and ordering
        information.

    This does not exclude otherwise allowed postings which
    direct readers to other sources of information.

Discussion on comparisons between Clipper and other languages should
be held in the most appropriate newsgroup.  Posts of "Clipper sucks",
or "Access is the only database system" should be posted to /dev/null.

The charter is a statement of what constitutes good manners in the
newsgroup.  It will be enforced through cooperation, mutual respect,
and peer pressure when necessary.  Anyone who willfully persists in
violating the newsgroup's charter will in all likelihood eventually be
asked, by the newsgroup's regular participants, to stop posting.  If
further sanctions are necessary, they will be discussed in
news.admin.misc.

Note that discussions regarding the Clipper encryption chip belong
in alt.privacy.clipper, and have virtually nothing to do with the
Clipper programming language.


Rationale
---------

Clipper is a powerful and flexible programming language for end-user
applications on MS-DOS-compatible platforms.  With the appearance
of Flagship, a full Clipper compiler for Unix-based systems, Clipper
has become a cross-platform development language also.

Clipper's syntax is a hybrid of historic xBase--the nickname given to
the collection of languages and development tools that use a language
similar to dBase III--and a more modern C-like style.  It has lexical
scoping, code blocks (which act somewhat like pointers to functions),
a NIL datatype, predefined object classes, and a highly refined
Replaceable Database Driver layer.  Many features of Clipper that were
xBase extensions are found useful enough to be incorporated into the
ANSI draft xBase standard.


Why does Clipper need a comp newsgroup of its own?
--------------------------------------------------

There are hundreds of thousands of Clipper developers throughout the
world, supporting two busy fora on Compuserve (CLIPPER for English
language and CLIPGER for German language) and dedicated discussion
groups on virtually every other group messaging network--except Usenet
proper.  The alternative newsgroup alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper
averages roughly 400-500 posts in a typical seven-day period; given
the poor propagation of alt groups, it seems that interest in Clipper
is more than enough to support a Clipper-specific comp group.


Okay, so you want to be in comp.
--------------------------------
Why not continue using comp.databases.xbase.misc?
-------------------------------------------------

comp.databases.xbase.misc receives an average of about 250 posts per
week, about half of the volume of the Clipper newsgroup in alt.  About
half of these posts are about Clipper.  So while there is obviously
a lot of interest in Clipper among readers of the alt group, and an
apparent willingness to use the comp hierarchy, the missing link is
the lack of a Clipper-specific newsgroup in the comp hierarchy.

Given that the alt hierarchy is not nearly as widely propagated as
comp, it stands to reason that the volume of readership and the number
of on-topic and useful postings in the current
alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper newsgroup would be substantially
increased by moving that discussion to a comp newsgroup.


What is this comp.lang.clipper business?
----------------------------------------

A few participants in the discussion that led up to this RFD suggested
that Clipper has diverged so far from its xBase roots that it no
longer properly belongs in the comp.databases.xbase hierarchy at all.
Rather, they feel that Clipper is a programming language in its own
right, and should therefore take a place in the comp.lang hierarchy.

Arguments in favor of classification of Clipper as a language:

  * It is arguably the least dBASE-like of the xBase variants.
  * The language is now supported on more than one platform, and
    compilers are now available from two different vendors.
  * The language features that distinguish Clipper from other xBase
    variants are not simply extensions of xBase syntax; they are
    large steps in the direction of database independence, C-like
    syntax, compile-time scoping, and other characteristics of
    modern programming languages.
  * With Replaceable Database Driver technology, Clipper is not
    tied to any one database implementation.  If you view xBase
    as fundamentally a data manipulation language bound to the
    DBF file format, then Clipper is most definitely not xBase.

Arguments for classification of Clipper as xBase:

  * Clipper compilers will compile 80% or more of typical dBASE
    III+ code, providing mostly the same run-time results as
    dBASE.
  * RDD technology notwithstanding, many Clipper programmers
    still work mainly within a "compiled xBase" model.
  * Most languages represented in the comp.lang hierarchy are
    not owned by any compiler vendor, and have implementations
    available from many vendors on many platforms.  Clipper is
    owned by Computer Associates, and is implemented on only a
    few platforms.
  * Usenetters might be inclined to look for a Clipper newsgroup
    under comp.databases.xbase rather than comp.lang, because
    Clipper's dBASE heritage is still pretty well known.


The general questions to decide
-------------------------------

(1) Should there be a separate newsgroup for Clipper in the comp
    hierarchy?

(2) Is Clipper more like an xBase variant (thus comp.databases.xbase.
    clipper) or a programming language (thus comp.lang.clipper)?


Form of the vote
----------------

I propose a ballot that looks like this:

(1) Create comp.lang.clipper?
    / /  Yes, I support creation of comp.lang.clipper
    / /  No, I oppose creation of comp.lang.clipper
    / /  I abstain on this issue.

This vote will be evaluated under the normal Big 7 rules.  To wit,
the group will be created if and only if:

  There are at least 100 more votes in favor of the new
  newsgroup than opposed; and

  There are at least twice as many votes in favor as opposed.

The name "comp.lang.clipper" is not final, and will not be considered
final until the CFV is posted.  Respondents to a recent straw poll in
alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper and comp.databases.xbase.misc
preferred the name "comp.lang.clipper" to "comp.databases.
xbase.clipper" by a 3-to-1 margin, so that is what I am proposing,
subject to discussion in news.groups.


Parting Shots
-------------

Discussion of the proposed new newsgroup and of the name selection
should properly be held on news.groups, not comp.databases.xbase.misc
or alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper. (Note that the Followup-To: line
of this article will direct any responses to news.groups
automatically.)

Readers should feel free to re-post this article to other newsgroups
and mailing lists whose readers might find it of interest, as long as
the Followup-To: line remains directed to news.groups.

From catfood@strinc.com Tue Nov 22 10:59:53 1994
Path: uunet!bounce-back
From: catfood@strinc.com (Mark W. Schumann)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper,comp.databases.xbase.misc,comp.lang.misc,news.announce.newgroups,news.groups
Subject: 2nd RFD: comp.lang.clipper
Followup-To: news.groups
Date: 22 Nov 1994 10:44:59 -0500
Organization: Systems for Today's Retailer, Brecksville, Ohio USA
Lines: 273
Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net
Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net
Message-ID: <3at3lr$clo@rodan.UU.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net
Xref: uunet alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper:4451 comp.databases.xbase.misc:2558 comp.lang.misc:19086 news.announce.newgroups:5982 news.groups:124232

R E Q U E S T  F O R  D I S C U S S I O N
-----------------------------------------

This is the second Request For Discussion on creation of a
Usenet newsgroup under the comp hierarchy, for the
discussion of the Clipper programming language.  [Note that
this topic has virtually nothing to do with the Clipper
encryption chip.]

The discussions generated in news.groups by this RFD will
determine the actual charter of the newsgroup to be created
and the form of the CFV.  This is the revised RFD, posted
halfway through the discussion period, that represents the
consensus about which group to create.

Changes from First RFD
----------------------
 There being no objection voiced to the name comp.lang.clipper,
 I have revised the RFD to name the new newsgroup by that
 moniker.  This is still not final until the CFV.

 I have added references to Visual Objects, a MS-Windows
 programming language that has historical, cultural, and design
 ties to Clipper.

 I have further illuminated the guidelines against posts that
 are particularly off-topic, or which are advertisements in
 excess of very short new-product announcements.


Proposed Group
--------------
 comp.lang.clipper


Status
------
Unmoderated


Distribution
------------
Worldwide


Proposed Voting Period
----------------------
RFD 1 begins  1-Nov-94
RFD 2 begins 14-Nov-94
CFV begins about 28-Nov-94


Charter
-------

comp.lang.clipper will be a newsgroup for programmers interested in
the Clipper applications development language.  The purpose of the new
newsgroup is:

(1) To discuss the design, programming, and administration of systems
    and applications which use the Clipper programming language.

(2) To share ideas, information, and specific experience regarding
    design and programming of applications with Clipper.

(3) To discuss new products of interest to Clipper developers,
    including updates to Clipper itself and third-party add-on
    products, their usage, advantages and drawbacks, and where
    shareware/freeware can be found for downloading;

(4) To educate and inform others about the strengths, weaknesses, and
    general usage of Clipper to solve real world problems;

(5) For discussion along the general outline of items 1-4 above,
    with respect to the Visual Objects programming language and
    development environment soon to be released by Computer
    Associates; and

(6) To allow brief announcements of products and events
    specifically for Clipper and Visual Objects programmers.
    This specifically excludes:

    (a) General-purpose programming tools;
    (b) Announcements of over 20 lines of text;
    (c) Advertisements listing specific prices and ordering
        information;
    (d) Advertisements for products and events which are not
        substantially specific to the needs of Clipper
        developers; and
    (e) Any product or event that has been announced on
        comp.lang.clipper within the past 30 days.

    This does not exclude otherwise allowed postings which
    direct readers to other sources of information.  For example,
    a post saying, "Our new WWW server is at www.foo.com.  Check
    it out for our great deals on Clipper libraries!" is allowable
    as long as it is posted no more than once a month.

    Item (d) is intended to mitigate against announcements of
    general-purpose programming tools or events, which really
    belong somewhere like comp.lang.misc.  There is nothing
    wrong with posts like this but we are attempting to keep
    on-topic with Clipper in particular.

Discussion on comparisons between Clipper and other languages should
be held in the most appropriate newsgroup.  Posts of "Clipper sucks",
or "Access is the only database system" should be posted to /dev/null.

The charter is a statement of what constitutes good manners in the
newsgroup.  It will be enforced through cooperation, mutual respect,
and peer pressure when necessary.  Anyone who willfully persists in
violating the newsgroup's charter will in all likelihood eventually be
asked, by the newsgroup's regular participants, to stop posting.  If
further sanctions are necessary, they will be discussed with the
offender, or in news.admin.misc.

NOTE that discussions regarding the Clipper encryption chip belong
in alt.privacy.clipper, and have virtually nothing to do with the
Clipper programming language.


Rationale
---------

Clipper is a powerful and flexible programming language for end-user
applications on MS-DOS-compatible platforms.  With the appearance
of Flagship, a full Clipper compiler for Unix-based systems, Clipper
has become a cross-platform development language also.

Clipper's syntax is a hybrid of historic xBase--the nickname given to
the collection of languages and development tools that use a language
similar to dBase III--and a more modern C-like style.  It has lexical
scoping, code blocks (which act somewhat like pointers to functions),
a NIL datatype, predefined object classes, and a highly refined
Replaceable Database Driver layer.  Many features of Clipper that were
xBase extensions are found useful enough to be incorporated into the
ANSI draft xBase standard.

The new Visual Objects programming language for MS-Windows is somewhat
Clipper-like, but probably different enough that it will someday earn
a newsgroup in its own right.  That someday is not today.  For now,
discussions specific to Visual Objects should be in comp.lang.clipper.


Why does Clipper need a comp newsgroup of its own?
--------------------------------------------------

There are hundreds of thousands of Clipper developers throughout the
world, supporting two busy fora on Compuserve (CLIPPER for English
language and CLIPGER for German language) and dedicated discussion
groups on virtually every other group messaging network--except Usenet
proper.  The alternative newsgroup alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper
averages roughly 400-500 posts in a typical seven-day period; given
the poor propagation of alt groups, it seems that interest in Clipper
is more than enough to support a Clipper-specific comp group.


Okay, so you want to be in comp.
--------------------------------
Why not continue using comp.databases.xbase.misc?
-------------------------------------------------

comp.databases.xbase.misc receives an average of about 250 posts per
week, about half of the volume of the Clipper newsgroup in alt.  About
half of these posts are about Clipper.  So while there is obviously
a lot of interest in Clipper among readers of the alt group, and an
apparent willingness to use the comp hierarchy, the missing link is
the lack of a Clipper-specific newsgroup in the comp hierarchy.

Given that the alt hierarchy is not nearly as widely propagated as
comp, it stands to reason that the volume of readership and the number
of on-topic and useful postings in the current
alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper newsgroup would be substantially
increased by moving that discussion to a comp newsgroup.

The point is that alt.comp.databases.xbase.clipper shows that there
is a lot of interest in Clipper-specific discussion, and that
comp.databases.xbase.misc shows the benefit of propagation under
the comp.* hierarchy.


What is this comp.lang.clipper business?
----------------------------------------

A few participants in the discussion that led up to this RFD suggested
that Clipper has diverged so far from its xBase roots that it no
longer properly belongs in the comp.databases.xbase hierarchy at all.
Rather, they feel that Clipper is a programming language in its own
right, and should therefore take a place in the comp.lang hierarchy.

Arguments in favor of classification of Clipper as a language:

  * It is arguably the least dBASE-like of the xBase variants.
  * The language is now supported on more than one platform, and
    compilers are now available from two different vendors.
  * The language features that distinguish Clipper from other xBase
    variants are not simply extensions of xBase syntax; they are
    large steps in the direction of database independence, C-like
    syntax, compile-time scoping, and other characteristics of
    modern programming languages.
  * With Replaceable Database Driver technology, Clipper is not
    tied to any one database implementation.  If you view xBase
    as fundamentally a data manipulation language bound to the
    DBF file format, then Clipper is most definitely not xBase.

Arguments for classification of Clipper as xBase:

  * Clipper compilers will compile 80% or more of typical dBASE
    III+ code, providing mostly the same run-time results as
    dBASE.
  * RDD technology notwithstanding, many Clipper programmers
    still work mainly within a "compiled xBase" model.
  * Most languages represented in the comp.lang hierarchy are
    not owned by any compiler vendor, and have implementations
    available from many vendors on many platforms.  Clipper is
    owned by Computer Associates, and is implemented on only a
    few platforms.
  * Usenetters might be inclined to look for a Clipper newsgroup
    under comp.databases.xbase rather than comp.lang, because
    Clipper's dBASE heritage is still pretty well known.


The general questions to decide
-------------------------------

(1) Should there be a separate newsgroup for Clipper in the comp
    hierarchy?

(2) Is Clipper more like an xBase variant (thus comp.databases.xbase.
    clipper) or a programming language (thus comp.lang.clipper)?


Form of the vote
----------------

I propose a ballot that looks like this.

IT IS NOT TIME TO VOTE YET.  THIS IS STILL THE RFD, NOT THE CALL FOR
VOTES.

(1) Create comp.lang.clipper?
    / /  Yes, I support creation of comp.lang.clipper.
    / /  No, I oppose creation of comp.lang.clipper.
    / /  I abstain on this issue.

This vote will be evaluated under the normal Big 7 rules.  To wit,
the group will be created if and only if: